Letters to the Editor: December 21, 2016

A proud liberal

Editor:

The following is an exact quote of the definition from Webster’s Dictionary:

Lib’ er-al, I.a 1. Possessing or manifesting a free and generous heart; bountiful. 2. Appropriate and/or fitting for a broad and enlightened mind. 3. Free from narrowness, bigotry, or bondage to authority or creed, II.n. 1. Any person who advocates liberty of thought, speech or action.

Yes, my friends (and enemies), I am proud to be considered a liberal.

Arnold Knack
Avondale

 

Post is exclusive

Editor:

Cry -Cry-Cry Mary Hayes,

You feel left out, stop and take a look at the requirements to join the American Legion Post 61. Once a veteran always a veteran, now tell me how many veterans have been denied acceptance in your organization. Possibly Post 61 should have been over looked many years ago. I am not saying your organization does not benefit communities and towns, but remember most organizations are readily involved, helping their community in a way they deem needed. And yes I am a NAVY VETERAN, but I don’t cry.

Jerry Oglesbee
Avondale

 

Lake project is a mess

Editor:

I’m sure you all know by now that my husband, dog and I walk around the lake in Litchfield Park nearly every day. We watch it pretty closely, especially since April when the renovations began.

It appears everything is done except the actual walkway. Now it looks like they are putting some sort of cap around the perimeter of the walkway. Maybe the concrete will be poured soon.

Many of the ducks returned on their own and, since it is now winter, many coots also returned. Approximately three weeks ago some sort of blue chemical was added to the lake, and all seemed to be fine. Apparently, it didn’t affect any of the wildlife. But, in the past week something green has been added and most of the wildlife has now left. There are about four ducks and maybe six coots left. One gentleman we talked to said that he personally pulled about ten dead cormorants out of the lake and all the minnows have also died.

We were told this whole project would take until the end of September. Now, we are well into December and still no end in sight. It seems this has been a mishandled project since the get-go. I can’t imagine how the City will be able to do the annual trout derby next month. To add insult to injury, all the grass in the park is dead, none of the non-working lights around the perimeter of the lake have been fixed, the watering system has not been addressed and the fountain still doesn’t work. Our once-beautiful little lake is rather a pathetic mess. I pray things will soon change, but am not holding my breath.

Sharon Green
Litchfield Park

 

Last is the new first explained

Editor:

Since my first letter was published two very intelligent woman said they didn’t understand i, I decided to explain it further.

Tower starts with the first letter of Trump. Power is the new symbol of Trump since his ascention, and P is the last letter of trumP.

Carl Deierling
Goodyear

 

F-35 is necessary

Editor:

Since we’ve heard a lot about the new President calling for re-negotiation with Boeing over the new Air Force One that has been ordered, we are glad that our government has started to watch the costs. To meet the pledge of fully equipping our military, we hope it will be noted that the F-35 Fighter Jets that will secure our nation well into the future, has seen declining costs for the past few years. This fighter jet is the most futuristic aircraft ever invented. Designed to provide maximum protection for our pilots, I am confident that this is a worthy expenditure for our country and hopeful that the new President feels the same.

Sarah Downey
Litchfield Park

 

Thank a police officer

Editor:

On Thanksgiving my husband and I decided to be part of the madness at Wal-mart. We went to the Wal-mart in Goodyear and when we were walking to the front we saw some police officers pulling a man out of a pickup truck. At first we thought they were arresting the man for stealing or something and began to chuckle but they laid him on the ground and starting doing CPR on him so we knew it was some type of medical issue. We should have walked away and minded our own business but like the other onlookers we watched. The officers did CPR until the fire truck and ambulance arrived. Within a few minutes the man was sitting up on the stretcher and appeared to be alright from what we could see. We felt obligated to share this story because of what our police officers and public safety is going through. They have gotten a bad rap and it’s important people know they are there to protect us (and save us too). Please keep all police officers and firemen in your prayers this Christmas. Many have been killed this year that won’t get to spend Christmas with their families. When you see a police officer thank them for what they do.

Lorna Palacios
Buckeye

 

Election results, consequences

Editor:

The election shock is still being digested by those on the right (adulation) and those on the left (disbelief) with all of the accusation, denial and excuses justifying the outcome. One side pointing to the Electoral College and the other the popular vote. The reality is Americans in key rural areas around the country came out in support of a change in direction for the county. This came as a shock to urban America. The message is simple, the economy and jobs are a top priority, improving healthcare and the regulatory regime, And finally and most importantly. RESTORE law and order to the streets of America and STOP the execution of police officers on the streets of America.....It’s time to accept the outcome of the election and step up and support this President as we have every other President in our history. The media or those that would not give the administration a chance is doing our nation a and it’s people a dis-service. At this point speculation on WHAT may be done is not criticism of a deed, it criticizing some you THING will be done....Holding the President accountable is part of our job, but letting him get to work for the country is also an obligation.....OUR SYSTEM IS MESSING FOR A REASON...God Bless America......

Virgil Warden
Goodyear

 

Seasons greetings

Editor:

Since, this year, Chanukah and Christmas overlap, it’s especially appropriate to consider the Jewish holiday’s importance for everyone.

Thousands of years ago Antiochus Epiphanies (ruler of the Middle East) had a not terribly original idea. He launched a “culture war” to unify his kingdom, requiring everyone to follow his religion (and its “traditional values”). The plan failed in the land of Israel, where the people revolted, threw out the foreign occupiers, and rededicated the Temple in Jerusalem to their God. (Chanukah means “rededication”.)

This may be the first war fought for religious freedom, a signal event in human history. It’s important for America, a land founded on freedom of religion, and freedom from government meddling in or control of religion. It also has significance for Christians.

Consider the consequences had the revolt failed. Jesus would have been born into a pagan family, in a pagan land. The Jewish scriptures would have long been forgotten. Could Jesus have even commenced preaching in such circumstances? Would there be an audience that could even understand, much less be inspired by the message?

So as my Christian neighbors and friends prepare to celebrate what I hope is a very Merry Christmas, remember: without Chanukah there could be no Christmas.

Happy Holidays to everyone!

Gordon P.R. Posner
Tolleson

 

Russia, Trump in cahoots

Editor:

First Conversation That Trump Has With Vladimir Putin:

Putin: “Congratulations Mr. President Trump; we are very pleased and pleasantly surprised with your election.”

Trump: “So was I!”

Putin: “Well you should be because our cyber operatives advised us that the metrics reveal that our hacking into the Democratic Party database did significantly alter the perception of Hillary Clinton’s issues with her e-mails and we successfully conflated the leaks in conjunction with Julian Assange. This made the difference that got you elected, Mr. President. By the way, your FBI Director, James Comey, was a great help in proliferating our manufactured perception about Mrs. Clinton. He’s a keeper.”

Trump: “I did appreciate it.”

Putin: “And we know how grateful you are. Because of this we are asking you to honor our requests of you and your government on certain issues.”

Trump: “What?”

Putin: “To begin, we now expect you to join us as an ally in the conflagration in Syria and do expect you to commit to sending your share of troops to assist in the fight to keep Assad in power among other favors. Let’s have some of your wretched vodka that you sent us 20 years ago. We saved it just for this occasion. Let’s toast to you and your administration which are now beholden to Mother Russia and Me.

NOSTROVIA MR. COMRADE PRESIDENT! Maybe you and I can wrestle a bear later”

Trump: “OMG!”

Putin: “Da! If you follow through on your obligations to us we may even allow you to erect one of your monolithic high-rise buildings in Moscow! Of course you will have to use our state-approved contractors and sub-contractors but you have been doing that with the Mob in the United States for years.”

Trump: “Well now Mr. Putin, you have made this palatable. NOSTROVIA!”

David Compton
Litchfield Park

 

Parents on naughty list

Editor:

On Dec 15th, I attended my grandson’s Christmas program at Inca Elementary School. He auditioned for the Fine Arts Club and got a part in the program. He has been practicing every week after school since mid September. The parking lot was overflowing, and the gym was filled to capacity with many left to stand against the wall. The Fine Arts Club teacher made an announcement before the performance, asking the audience to be quiet so the students could be heard, and to not move around so as not to block another parent’s view of their child. I thought to myself, really? You have to tell adults to be quiet? Not even half way through the performance, I understood why the announcement was made. Parents, shame on you. Numerous times the students were left standing on stage waiting for the crowd to quiet down. One time, after several minutes of waiting, the teacher closed the curtains and said “We are waiting for the audience to be quiet.” As if that wasn’t bad enough, parents began to leave after their child’s grade was done singing. Students who spent numerous hours rehearsing lines and songs were seeing the crowd disperse as they performed on stage. How rude, how disrespectful. By the time the performance was over, 3/4 of the crowd had already left. Congratulations parents, you just taught your child that if they are not the center of attention, it’s not necessary to stay till the end. You taught your child that it’s ok to be disrespectful and rude to the people around them. You taught your child how to be part of the “I’m the only one that matters” generation. Performers, outstanding job; you were awesome. While you are home on Christmas break, please teach your parents some manners.

Marge Meggers
Buckeye

 

Liberal crybabies back at it

Editor:

Liberal fantasy players at it again. Now, trying to overturn Presidential election results because they unhappy over results because their gal or guy didn’t win, otherwise you wouldn’t hear a peep out of them. The electoral college was established to level the playing field for all states to have a voice, not just super states like Calif and NY. It’s why we are called a Representative Republic.

It’s beyond sad what cry baby liberals have done to the Democrat party and civility of our nation. It’s beyond their pea brained comprehension that people are fed up with it.

Roy Sharp
Goodyear

 

Thoughts about 2 issues

Editor:

Gun Control?

Some perspectives would qualify the issue of gun control as complex. However, from a “Pro-Life” perspective this is a simple issue. Many countries have dealt with this issue and reduced the loss of life significantly. All we need to do is swallow our pride and accept the fact that this relatively young country, though very powerful country, can still learn some things. This is a simple case of the value we put on human life. An idea that philosophers use to rate a civilization.

Abortion?

This is another issue that if looked at from a “Pro-Life” perspective is a simple issue. Yet most “Pro-Life” people are against protecting life with “Gun Control”. Most “Pro-Life” people are also against strong government control. However, nothing is more controlling than restricting the rights of women to make their own health care decisions.

Gun control is an issue mostly effecting the rights of men. Anti-abortion is an issue effecting the rights of women. Men are more likely to commit violence than women. Women are more likely to own guns to protect themselves from the violence of men. Men have total control over the health and reproductive ability of their bodies. Pro-Life would take away women’s control over the health and reproductive ability of their bodies. Let’s switch the gender of these two issues. Assume for a moment that men have the more complex and amazing ability to grow and nurture life and women had only the task of impregnating the men. What government and what religion would limit the rights of men to have an abortion, and how long would there be no gun control if women were committing the violence?

Art Boyle
Buckeye

 

Whoa! Hold your horses!

Editor:

Full disclosure: I have met Mayor Meck and worked on his re-election campaign. I have met Dave Nigh. I have not discussed this with either gentlemen.

Now, that is out of the way, I would like to say to all of those who have been charged for excessive water usage…I FEEL YOUR PAIN.

In the summer of 2015 and 2016 we received excessive water bills. From 0 usage to 10K or 20K in 1 month. We contacted the Buckeye Water Dept in 2015 and the issue was resolved. In 2016 my intelligence was insulted and I was offended by the manner in which the office personnel treated me. I wrote Dave Nigh, attached supporting documents, our meter was checked, and our account was adjusted.

Questions: Faulty meter? Hasty meter read? Temp help? Same problem/attitude in other communities? Personnel attitude for fear of losing their job or just protocol?

It does take time to research and resolve these issues. Firing or Recalling will not solve the problems. Perhaps only inhibit finding the answers. Work with the Mayor and Council. A recall election is expensive and will cost EVERY TAXPAYER. Something to think about.

Marilyn A. Walker Vollmer
Buckeye

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Comments

Gordon Posner's picture

The Angel Tree at the Metropolitan Museum of Art

New York City

porr000's picture

Gordon,

Merry Christmas to you too!

Love the tree.

Patrick

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Patrick:

   You should go to New York and see it in real life.  Like the Grand Canyon, or Michaelangelo's David, pictures don't do it justice.

Gordon Posner's picture

http://www.akidsheart.com/pics5z/han/han05.gif

 

porr000's picture

Dear Gordon:

Happy Chanukah to you too!

Patrick

Gordon Posner's picture

  

Gordon Posner's picture

   Once again I must complain about the lack of "Chanukah Spirit" at the Target chain of stores.  While they have giant signs saying "Merry Christmas", "Joyeaux Noel", and "Feliz Navidad", they can't seem to manage even one tiny "Happy Chanukah"!

Dear Gordon,

You might say that using the Christmas and Chanukah holidays “the Democrat” President Obama has reversed a longstanding U.S. policy that in the end delegitimizes Israel. Both Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump view the Obama Administration’s position as a betrayal to Israel. Therefore, Gordon either stands with Netanyahu and Trump or he must abandon the Israeli point of view in favor of the “hypocrite” Obama's action. There is no middle ground to hide upon on this issue.

Thomas

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Thomas:

   Yes, you might say that.  I say it's CRAP!

   I have no doubt that Netanyahu wants a policy of blind support for anything he does, but that isn't and hasn't been the policy of the U.S., nor should it be.

   And since when does the entire State of Israel consist of just one man?  To paraphrase Shakespeare, upon what meat doth our Bennie feed that he has grown so great?  What you, and Lying Trump (if I can accept that he also voices such a view), are saying is that Netanyahu is now the King of Israel, and can do whatever he wants by "Divine Right".  Jefferson must be spinning in his grave.

   All the resolution did was condemn the Israeli Settlements in the West Bank - properly so, since there is no legal basis for them to exist!  If condemning theft is a "betrayal", then why did we bother fighting a "hot" war against Germany and a "cold" one against the Soviet Union?

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.761030

  I'm sorry, but as a Jew I'm not obliged to approve or support anything the Likud government in Israel does.  (Anymore than Israelis who voted against said government are obliged to.)  And as an American I'm certainly not obliged to support what I consider to be wrong, or to demand my government support it either.

  You have no idea what the "Israeli point of view" is, anymore than you know what the "American point of view" is.  All you know are the views of their governments, but so long as America remains a democracy, and so long as the First Amendment has any value, then every American has the right to disagree with the views of both their government, and that of Israel.  Since I disagree with Netanyahu, I obviously agree with America's action at the U.N.

   And if anything, I say it's the mindless supporters of Netanyahu (I don't mean all of them, just those who do so mindlessly) who are "betraying" Israel. Tell me, Thomas, what's to become of the Palestinians whose lands are being seized?  This is all part of a long-range plan to create a "Greater Israel", and abandon the U.N. Partition Plan (with its "Two State Solution") which is the only legal basis for Israel's existence!  Just what does the future hold for a "One State Solution"?  Here are the alternatives I see:

   1) Israel expells all the Palestinians, a bit of ethnic cleansing reminiscent of what the Romans did when they sent the Jews into Exile.

   2) Israel establishes isolated Palestinian "homelands" which are both politically and economically unviable, which grant their "citizens" no rights in the government which actually rules over them (Israel's), which is nothing more than Apartheid.

   3) Israel accords the Palestinians it "absorbs" into Greater Israel full citizenship rights.  Which means, of course, that within a generation the Palestinian controlled Knesset votes to abolish Israel, and rename the country Palestine!

   Saving Israel from such a future set of choices is what a "good friend" does.  Friends don't let friends drive drunk, or run a country when they're drunk with power.  Netayahu is driving Israel off a thousand foot cliff at 200 mph.  I think it no "betrayal" for the U.S. to agree a "Stop Sign" warning "Cliff Ahead" is a good idea.

   As always, I stand with "little" things like facts, reason, and truth.  As always you make your stand with ignorance, arrogance, partisanship, and mindless ideology.

P.S. - And thanks for ruining the holidays that way.  I trust you received nothing but coal in your stockings!

Dear Gordon,

Sorry, but Panels Politics of Tel Aviv conducted a survey poll in 2012, before the collapse of Israeli-Palestinian talks under the Obama Administration, 21 percent of Israelis felt he was pro-Israel . Some 47 percent of Israelis viewed the Obama Administration as being pro-Palestinian.

In 2015, Panels Politics found that 60 percent of Israelis viewed the Obama Administration as being pro-Palestinian and only 9 percent being pro-Israel. Of course polls have been known to be a little off or who would have thought Trump would have beaten Hillary. Oops, Hillary won the popular vote so “progressives” feel it should somehow de-legitimize Trump.

Another factor is even though polls claim Obama has over 50 percent of a favorable rating, fact remains he turned more blue states into red ones.

 

Ooh, by the way it was the New York Democrat Senator Chuck Schumer who voiced his displeasure of the action that president Obama took in abstaining in the anti-Israel UN Vote.

You have my permission to further your rhetoric with the continued use the ad hominem, a proven fact of the inconsistency of your own arguments. wink

Thomas

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Thomas:

   Sorry yourself (and you're a pretty sorry character) but opinions aren't facts!  So what if a poll showed more Israelis thought poorly of Obama than approved of him.  As I recall we kept hearing throughout this year of polls showing a certain Democratic candidate was "inevitable", and her victory on Election Night was assured.  How'd that work out?

   So, which set of "facts" are we to believe?  Was Hillary "inevitable", is Obama Pro-Israel?  Apparently polling indicated both are true!  (At least, in the latter case, I bet among Israelis who disagree with Netanyahu.)

   And you certainly seem insecure about Lying Trump's "legitimacy" (as the President-elect).  That's why you and other "conservatives" try to pretend he somehow has a "mandate" from the American "people".  Sorry, he doesn't.  The nation is bitterly divided about that guy, and a majority of the Americans who bothered to vote (the only people who count being the ones who voted) didn't vote for him!  Some "mandate".

   Does this "delegitimize" his presidency?  No, I expect he'll manage to do that all by himself, and soon enough the land will reverberate with the cry "Impeach Him Now!"  Maybe that's what you're afraid of, so (in classic fashion) you try to hide your insecurity with bluster, bravado, and sophistry.  (Classic not just for you, but for all insecure people.)

   And I love the way you supposedly "independent thinkers" among the "conservatives" keep repeating the same talking points about how many States the Democrats have lost during the Obama years, as if State elections are entirely determined by who is President.  Gee, that explains how Arpaio just got re-elected!  (Oh, wait, he didn't?  Never mind.)  Once again your insecurity is showing.

   Democratic Senator Schumer can disagree with the President.  (There's no such thing as a "Democrat Senator", you Republi-Con!)  It's a free country (so far), and he's entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours, and I am to mine.  And we can hold our opinions without being called "traitors", "un-godly", "hypocrites", or any of the other epithets Republi-Cons like you like to hurl at those who disagree.

   (So no hypocritical lectures about using ad hominems from you sir.  I'll stop when you stop.)

   Meanwhile, I can't help noticing the complete lack of substance to what you wrote, and how you evaded and avoided just about all the points I made.  A sure sign you have no good arguments to make!  So, let's try this again, and see if you're even capable of honestly addressing what I said; specifically what's your response to the following points I previously made?

   1) Must the U.S. blindly support everything Netanyahu does (or wants to do)?

   2) Does the opinion of one man (even if he's the Prime Minister) constitute the opinion of all of Israel, or just of its current government?  (And, given how fractured Israel's parliamentary system is, can we even say that?)

   3) What legal (let alone principled or moral) basis is there for the Settlements?

   4) Must Jews blindly support everything Netanyahu does (or wants to do)?

   5) Must all Israelis (both the Jewish and Muslim Israelis) blindly support everything Netanyahu does (or wants to do)?

   6) On what basis do you claim to "know" what "the Israelis point of view" is?  (And opinion polls don't count, for reasons already stated.)  Remember, the only thing two Jews can agree on is that a third Jew is wrong!  Rather hard to get unanimity of opinion among such a "stiff-necked" and argumentative people.

   7) I repeat: "what's to become of the Palestinians whose lands are being seized?"  You didn't answer this all important question, and I must insist that you do, since Israel's fate depends on it.  (You can offer other alternatives than the three I offered, but the more you evade and avoid this critical question, the more you prove you have no answer!)

   And finally,

   8) Should friends let their friends drive drunk?  (I've already explained the metaphor.)

   Time to put up or shut up, bubalah.

 

Dear Gordon,

Sorry, Gordon but you’re full of smokehouse barbecue sauce as your letting your anger get the best of you. Anger increases the blood pressure, so calm down.

In your own words:

Gee, am I the only one who wants to come and play here anymore?

http://www.westvalleyview.com/articles/2016/10/12/letters-editor-october...

You can sue me “counselor” or you can kindly go back to New York. Start by taking I-10.

Thomas

Gordon Posner's picture

A reply to this Comment appears in the webpage of the next issue: http://www.westvalleyview.com/comment/25766#comment-25766

porr000's picture

Sorry Thomas, but it was Netanyahu himself who said the support of the US towards Israel's security under the Obama administration has been "unprescidented".

One CAN support Israel, AND disagree with an action by its leader AT THE SAME TIME.

Patrick

porr000's picture

Thomas, while we are at it, why don't you explain for us why you support Netanyahu's action of taking over parts of the Palestinian territory in the West Bank. Then after that, you can explain why the US should continue to support it.

Patrick

Dear Patrick,

Patrick often brings a unique perspective to any conversation however; there is no need to be Gordon’s cavalry. He is quite capable of sinking within his own rhetoric.

Never said, nor do I recall quoting Netanyahu but, what occurred was Obama’s blunder opened the door to Netanyahu’s political agenda. You will have to ask Gordon about the Palestinian territory in the West Bank was an issue that he brought up.

The “Fact” of the painful truth is the Democratic Party has lost enormous political ground over the past eight years under Obama’s leadership. Unfortunately, for Obama by abstaining on the controversial United Nations Security Council resolution will cement his legacy as being the most anti-Israel president in American history.

Thomas

porr000's picture

See comment in next issue please.

Gordon Posner's picture

  

Gordon Posner's picture

The response to Thomas' empty rhetoric appears on the webpage of the next issue: http://www.westvalleyview.com/comment/25768#comment-25768

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Ms. Placious:

  I do thank the Police, but (as I just finished explaining to Mr. Warden), I don't assume they're always in the right, or that the people they encounter are always in the wrong.  (I don't assume the opposite either.)  That, after all, is what we have trials for: to determine (as best we can) what happened.

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Mr. Warden:

   There are a few shocking things about your Letter I wish to address.

   First, I suggest you proof-read your Letters before sending them.  I know of no one who criticizes Lying Trump for what they "THING" will be done.  (Though, criticism of Hillary for what "Trumpsters" merely thought she would do, or had done, was very popular with that crowd.)  And while our "system" (whatever system you're referring to) could use improvement (nothing's perfect after all), I don't see what "MESSING" has to do with it.  Are you suggesting we just need a good set of maids and housekeepers?  If so, perhaps we should reconsider Lying Trump's immigration policies! wink

   Second, I question the popular (and media driven) notion that this election was a "war" between rural and urban areas.

   Even "Blue" States like California and New York have plenty of rural areas.  (In New York politicians talk about "upstate" versus "downstate".)  And the reverse is true for "Red" States, they have plenty of urban areas too.  (And what are we supposed to do about Suburbia?)  For that reason alone talking about "urban vs. rural" is nonesense.

   Furthermore, I'm sure there were plenty of voters for Lying Trump in "urban" areas (such as Chandler, Mesa, and Scottsdale here in Arizona), and while I consider Flagstaff to be rather "rural", I wouldn't be surprised to find plenty of Hillary voters there.

   Finally, the illusion of rural vs. urban comes in part from the winner-take-all system most States employ for assigning their electoral votes.  All that counts is one candidate getting one vote more than the other, and the State becomes "Blue" or "Red".  So don't pay too much attention to the Electoral Map.  It merely shows how the total electoral vote went.  It tells us nothing about how the popular vote went in each State, nor whether it was "rural" voters who carried the day in "Red" States (etc.).

   Here's a challenge for anyone who has the time, energy, and interest: find out how the popular votes were cast in every county in the nation.  Then throw out any votes for Lying Trump in "urban" counties, and any for Hillary in "rural" ones.  (Suburbia could be split between them, they keep all the votes they get there.)  Then go back and recalculate the electoral votes based on that.  I wonder what the results would be if Lying Trump only got "rural" votes, and Hillary only got "urban" ones.  (Poor Dr. Stein and Governer Johnson can't participate in this.)

   Third, the reasons for the outcome of the election are many and varied, so assigning the cause to the issues you mentioned is a bit of hyperbole.  I might add there's little a President can do to "restore law and order" (whatever that's supposed to mean).  Most Police matters are handled on the State level.

   While the execution of police officers by lone nuts is a valid concern, I think the fear that there may be too many "bad apples" in our police forces is also valid.  The key is to employ the principle of Due Process (enshrined in the 5th and 14th Amendments).  Don't assume every person shot by the police is a "thug", and don't assume every member of the police who pulls the trigger is a "killer".  There's a reason we have Courts of Law and trials: to resolve such events, and determine (as best as humanly possible) what happened.

   As for your call that we must all "accept the outcome" of the election, and support Lying Trump "as we have every other President in our history", I suggest you read my Comment to Mr. Sharp.  That's exactly what those of us appalled at the prospect of a Lying Trump Presidency are doing!

http://www.westvalleyview.com/comment/25696#comment-25696

  It's how Republicans and "conservatives" behaved in 1992, 2008, and 2012.  Now it's "our" turn!

 

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Mr. Compton:

   Much as I loathe Lying Trump, I can't "sign-on" to your little "novella", and not just because you failed to mention that conversation took place while the two were in bed together!  wink

   While I think there were many things that went wrong with this election, including the items you discussed (among other things), and they need to be investigated thoroughly, I can't join the call of those who think this somehow invalidates the results of the election.  Why?  Because of a lack of proof on the critical issue of causation.

   Let's assume the Russians, acting on orders from Putin, sought to (and did) interfere in our election in the manner you mention (either to elect Lying Trump, or as "payback" for things Clinton said about Putin).  Leaving aside the fact that there's no constitutional method for undoing an election, you must first be able to prove that but for the Russian hacking (or any of the other things) Lying Trump would have lost.

   This cannot be done!

   Doing so would require asking every voter how they voted and why.  We would then have to see how much of a difference it would have made.  For example, even if half of the voters for Lying Trump in California were influenced by the Russians, that wouldn't change the outcome since under the winner-take-all system Hillary got all of California's electoral votes whether she won that State by only 50% + 1, or by 99.999999999999%!  No matter how many additional popular votes she might get if we threw out the votes "affected" by the Russians, she'd get no more electoral votes.  The same problem exists in all 50 States.

    Then there's the problem that we can't question the voters.  The "voting booth" is one of the most private places in our nation.  We simply can't be forced to reveal who we voted for, or why.  Add to that there's no way to insure the honesty of those who'd voluntarily answer our questions (and that includes whether they're being honest with themselves), and it's clear the task of proving causation is impossible!

   That doesn't mean all these things shouldn't be thoroughly investigated, but only prospectively.  We can't undo this election, but we can do all we can to insure such "hacking" (and other things such as "fake news") have no influence in the future.

   After all, I'm sure our "conservative friends" wouldn't like it if in 2020 President-elect Warren was helped by Putin's hackers, after his "bromance" with Lying Trump falls apart!wink

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Mr. Boyle:

   While I appreciate what you're trying to say, and agree somewhat, I'm afraid you've muddled things a bit.

   The issue isn't how "Pro-Life" one is.  As you ably demonstrated that term can mean many different things to different people.  Our Vegan friends would argue one can't be "Pro-Life" while slaughtering animals for consumption, while others might point out that going to war to stop monsters like Hitler is very much "Pro-Life".

   But make the issue instead the proper role of government in our lives, and I think what you're trying to say (assuming I understand you) can be made more clearly.

   Those who oppose Gun Control base their position on the Second Amendment, which expressly guarantees a "right" to "keep and bear arms".  (Nevermind, for our purposes, how they misapply and distort that Amendment.)  Since there is no such express statement in the Constitution of a woman's "right to chose", they can argue that no such "right" exists, and be consistent.

   Wrong, but consistent.  Again, let's not debate how to interpret or apply the Constitution, just whether they're doing so in a consistent manner.

   And that's where their demand for express constitutional provisions trips them up.  (It's also where so-called "small government conservatives" run afoul.)  Most "Pro-Lifers" support Federal laws like the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003.  But, nowhere does the Constitution grant the Federal government the power to pass such a law!  (The power of State governments to do this is another matter entirely.)  Yet these same "conservatives" will use the absence of express power over the environment, healthcare, and a legion of other topics, as an argument against things like the EPA, innumberable Federal regulations, and (of course) "Obamcare".

   I've pointed out this hypocrisy many times (here and elsewhere), inviting "conservatives" to come up with a consistent and constitutional explanation why the Abortion Ban is okay, but "Obamacare" (etc.) isn't.  So far none have met the challenge.

   But I must really disagree with your claim that "Gun control is an issue mostly effecting [sic] the rights of men".  Indeed, you contradict yourself by noting that women also own guns.  Such women have as much to be concerned about Gun Control as any man.  But then, so do all of us (whichever side of the issue we're on).

Gordon Posner's picture

Dear Mr. Sharp:

   Of course you remember back in 1992, when Bill Clinton won by 370 electoral votes to Bush's 168, and won the popular vote by a margin of over 5 Million votes (way more in either count than Lying Trump received), all you good "conservatives" immediately put the election behind them, renounced mindless partisanship, and pledged to work with Clinton for the good of the country.

http://www.100bestwebsites.org/alt/evmaps/1992.gif

   They didn't whine that Bill wasn't "really" elected, because of all the votes Ross Perot "stole" from Bush, or that since he didn't get a majority of the popular vote he had no "mandate".

   And I'm sure you remember how in 2008, after Obama won by 365 electoral votes to McCain's 173 (with a popular vote margin of nearly 10 Million), again far more than Lying Trump, "conservatives" rushed to declare their acceptance of the result, and vowed to work with the President-elect to make his a successful Administration.

http://politicalmaps.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/2008-election-map-nytimes.png

 

   You surely also recall how, after Obama's victory in 2012, where he won 332 electoral votes to Romney's 206, and had almost a 5 Million popular vote margin,  yet again more than Lying Trump got in either the electoral or popular vote, "conservatives" again stepped up to declare their support for the man the nation had chosen as its President.

 

   Oh, wait, they didn't?  Never mind.

  As for your argument about being a republic is the reason we have the Electoral College, I'm going to submit a series of Letters (with accompanying Comments) demonstrating how false your argument is.  In fact, the College as it operates today is the exact opposite of what the Founders intended, and isn't the way a "Representative Republic" is supposed to function.

   And no lectures on "civility" from a supporter of Lying Trump, please.  Remember, he's the man who falsely claimed to have seen a non-existent video of
"Dancing Muslims In Jersey City", and continued to adhere to that Slander even after it was proven to be false!  His entire campaign was nothing but an appeal to the devils of our worst natures (which earns him the title of "the Anti-Lincoln"), and sowing division is what helped him get elected.  But what can I expect from a member of the Republi-Con Party but consistent hypocrisy and deceit?

 

 

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